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Adroit System

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PostSubject: Jedi Sith - Rules   Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:04 pm

Across the web, there are countless forums who roleplay star wars. From what I have seen, every one has its lists of rules which dictate the roleplay on the site. Here on jedi sith, we have our own rules (even though no one cares) that we are supposed to abide by. But jedi sith lacks structure, authority, and currently enough members for it to really matter. What we do have, is freedom in our own community where we have all found joy in writing our great stories, and felt a rush of adrenaline as our fingers skittered across the keyboard as we designed the perfect attack to vanquish our enemy. In short, we all enjoy the freedom of unrestricted creativity. The heart and soul of roleplaying in my own opinion.

So I ask, why do we have the rules? I understand a need for some basic forum rules, with ones that we abide by, but I believe we do not need a whole list of rules telling us what our characters can and cannot do. So I say we throw out our current rules, because I can say that these rules that I myself typed up are not fit for jedi sith and our communities personality. I suggest we replace these rules, with a short basic list of OOC rules that we can follow, buyt more important, one very simple rule governing our roleplay.

The 1st and ONLY rule I propose is very simple. If its logical, then it works.

This rule is all encompassing, but is not restricting. Now, I know few of us follow the rules, or have really even read the rules. Apparently I typed them up, and I couldnít tell you what the rules are. So I donít think the rule would have any real impact, aside from maybe making a few of us confine to physics and logic.

Please tell me what you think. But please, donít attack the idea. Perhaps make a suggestion on what you think we should do with the rules, if anything.
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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:46 pm

I like this proposale

10/10
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Redack

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:08 am

I've generally ignored the rules completely anyway- I basically just do something and wait to find out if someone is going to argue against me doing it, if they don't (which they don't Razz) then I keep it and point out at later times that they had their chance to stop me having it... So I'm voting yes Very Happy
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Vegito Rikhard

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:10 am

I don't really like this rule. Each forum needs some rules to keep things together. There would be choas if everyone did what they wanted.
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Adroit System

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:42 am

Vegito Rikhard wrote:
I don't really like this rule. Each forum needs some rules to keep things together. There would be choas if everyone did what they wanted.

I can understand where that might be a concern. However, people already do what they want, except in our case, its not always logical.

Why do you think that there would be chaos?
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Redack

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:09 am

Fear of chaos is a weakness in humans by our very nature, in my opinion... But I don't think it'd be chaos...

But to be honest, as mentioned in the reply above, most of us already do whatever we want...

But if this idea isn't accepted then we need a new set of rules, JS has ALWAYS been far too restrictive!
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Mark Kenobi

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 10:22 am

I do not think he means complete chaos, but think about it... the rules could be abused if they were shortened so much. I mean, I agree that the rules have been (not ALWAYS, because back ont the Star Wars Obi-Wan forum, training went by in like a day and there were practically no limits other than the same "logic" being proposed here) way too restrictive (such as having to sacrifice a power to use Electric Judgment), but without them, there would be no written standard for people being too powerful or restrict them from doing things the rules have always opposed (such as learning a power without someone else teaching them, which can be done logically in the SW universe, but wasn't allowed in the rules). Besides, "logic" can be a point of view. More than ever before, the logical "rules" would be defined by the majority of the forum's point of view, leaving the minority out of luck, even if the difference is 5 to 4, leaving those four to abide by the "logcial" standards agreed on by the other five.

What I am really saying, some people could come up with "logical" standards on the spot in the middle of a fight, and if someone who is fighting that person disagrees with this "logic" but is outnumbered in opinions, he is practically dead on the spot.

Say I fought Belial. We might have equal fighting skill, but if Belial comes up with some "logical" way to kill me that wouldn't have been possible when the full rules were instated, I could die very easily if a bunch side with his "logic" - even it is not necessarily logical. Consider that theoritically most people would favor Belial over me because there are a lot of people who have grudges against me. They would rationalize their decision by power of numbers, and no matter how illogical the decision could be, it would be considered "logical" just because a larger number sided with that decision rather than against it.

So in some ways, this could come to the great advantage of some people and yet drop others right down the pipe.

In removing the written rules, we would be taking a big risk to opening ourselves to forum role-playing anarchy.
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Adroit System

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:17 am

I understand that people will have a different understanding of what IS and what ISN'T logical. But these arguments happen regardless of whether we have rules or not.

Inevitably it will end in people arguing, but people do that anyway.

I can understand that in an argument someone might come up with a different logic, but that has plagued jedi sith since its beginning, and has been something that has caused issue's on ALL forums.

I don't propose to end arguments, but I do think that site would benefit from more freedom.
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Trever Leingod

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:44 am

I think your opposition's point is that it won't result in freedom unless some other steps are used. It would just result in people following whatever rules they have in their head. Trust me, I love the idea of freedom, but not everyone on this site has a rational and truly logical idea of how things should be. Everyone has their own opinion on what rules are fair and which are not. Without the rules, arguments are just going to get worse. We may as well banish the mods of their RP judge authority and let a pair of duelists fight until both of them agree to who died. That would be the only way to ensure a fair, balanced, and free roleplaying society on Jedi Sith.

So, if all can agree to this idea - that for every person that duels another, the decision of who wins/loses the fight must be decided only by those specifically involved in the fight to ensure complete unabiased decisions - then I think Adroit's idea of freedom from rules would work. But if not, the idea will prove way too difficult to pull with the general forum without someone getting the short end of the stick.
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Richter Belmont

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:51 am

I think it is feasible to believe that JediSith needs some restrictions removed, but to remove all the rules and hold logic as the only rule will not benefit the forum at all. Arguements are part of all forums, but that is why rules are placed to hold a standard, as Mark pointed out.

At least in some part, I agree with Redack that the rules needs a new set of rules. I have suggested for some time that the rules need refurnishing. What I suggest that the rules that are not necessary to be removed, while the rules that are guidelines for forum behavior and for RPing need to stay intact, but perhaps need details edited or more finely defined.

I do also agree with Ket that forum will benefit with more freedom, but to what degree is the question. What kind of freedom will benefit the forum? By removing key rules I know that a few RPers are bound to take certain liberties and use it to their advantage at the expense of others that are willing to be fair.

Redack wrote:
Fear of chaos is a weakness in humans by our very nature, in my opinion... But I don't think it'd be chaos...

Fear can also be a strength.

Quote :
But to be honest, as mentioned in the reply above, most of us already do whatever we want...

However, all that we have done has been within the confines of the rules as far as I can see.

Rules are needed to set a reasonable standard for forum activity and behavior. The powers that be should be lenient depending on the situation, and give fair warning before setting any punishment. Rules also give a certain balance to a forum, and I think what Vegito fears is that balance bearing significant damage, which is reasonable.

If we had a different people, such liberties as forum rules being removed would not affect people much, but in present company it is reasonable to assume certain people will be unfair.

Forgotten Jedi wrote:
the decision of who wins/loses the fight must be decided only by those specifically involved in the fight to ensure complete unabiased decisions - then I think Adroit's idea of freedom from rules would work. But if not, the idea will prove way too difficult to pull with the general forum without someone getting the short end of the stick.

I do agree with this assessment. However, in order for a truly fair decision to be made, certain rules need to be defined more clearly so that people that would twist the rules can no longer do so. That way, in the objective standard, arguements would not be necessary or at least carry little weight.


Last edited by Richter Belmont on Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Adding last comment to Wind)
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Trever Leingod

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:07 pm

The rules either need to be significantly expanded to leave no questions or loopholes, or generalized and left to only unabiased parties, most especially the idea that only the duelists involved can decide on the fight's call. Some of us, such as myself, Richter and Mark, have fequently requested complete rules, and that every fight or controversial matter MUST be decided by ONLY the written rules and no opinions or quasi-rules. People should be able to deal with this. For instance, we have never had a specfic Force Mana table limit and we rarely ever had anyone abuse their Force powers to an insane degree, so some freedom should be okay if we set a reasonable limit.

Of course, the logical alternative is the generalized freedom idea presented here. The most controversial subject throughout Jedi Sith would be duels, and to avoid more controversy, the idea for unabiased and private duel decisions would be the only recourse to make sure these controversies don't happen. Of course, we will get many sore losers and cheaters who will complain and not agree to fair defeats, but forum-rule freedom must come at a price. This is the only price that can be the alternative to infinite amounts of duel controversies.

Of course, I think ALL POSSIBLE capabilities and power used in the canon Star Wars universe should be allowed without question hereafter, if this idea pulls through. This "can't learn or use a new ability without sacrificing another" rule is absolute rubbish. Luke Skywalker had to give up absolutely no powers to use Emerald Lightning/Electric Judgment, and neither should any other Jedi. If you know the power, you should be able to use it without payment, other than draining your Force Mana. Heck, you should even able to learn a power you don't know by experimenting with the Force. Surely the first Jedi didn't have someone to teach him - he learned it on his own. Why can't we do the same?
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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:17 pm

I think one of the strengths of J/S compared to other RP sites that I've been to is that it is so much more lenient on the rules. That being said, I do think that there are probably some very basic rules that should be set in stone. As Mark said, logic can mean one thing to one person and something completely different to another...and I'd tend to agree with him that in the case of a vote, it will more often than not turn into a popularity contest. I also think there's a problem with simply requiring that two duelists come to an agreement in the case of an argument, as Wind suggested, because I could see that being abused way too easily--someone who is on the losing side of a battle could intentionally provoke an argument and refuse to allow it to come to a conclusion, forcing the voiding of the battle and escaping IC defeat or death. Without outside interference, I think that would happen far too often.

I'm not taking a side on this issue just yet, just throwing in my input. These ideas work perfectly in theory (and might in practice), but bear in mind that not everyone at J/S is going to be logical or reasonable.

As for the teaching yourself powers--as far as I know that's always been allowed after Knighthood...at least, I've done it, and I'm pretty sure Ket and many others have.
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Trever Leingod

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:22 pm

Well, the idea that goes with my priorly presented idea is that if the two duelists cannot immediately decide on a technicality, the fight goes on. And on and on, until one person gives in or both give up. That's really the only thing that will work, otherwise the "popularity contest" you mentioned is the only alternative.
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Vegito Rikhard

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:24 pm

There also something else to think about. Some Star Wars forums allow some people to start right away as a Sith Knight or Jedi Knight with a set amount of powers. For some, that could save a lot of time of rping. The advanced powers had to be learned by holocron and practiced on a rp thread, or learn them from another Jedi Master who knows it.

As for the fighting, there should be rules on that as someone else suggested so that arguements could be avoided or put to rest on a rule. Sometimes going on and on because someone doesn't agree when one person clearly won on something can be tiring.
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Adroit System

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:31 pm

ATTENTION

Could everyone who wants to be heard, please send me a PM stating in as few words as possible where they stand on the issue?

If you have not decided, go ahead and wait.

I expect this decision on exactly what to do will not come to close for some time, so no rush.

So far, it appears that everyone agrees on one thing. The rules need to be changed.
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Vegito Rikhard

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 1:49 pm

I do not believe it is possible to explain my position in very few words. I will have to think about if first. What issue exactly are you thinking about? If its the rules, I agree with Richter that it just needs some fine tuning.
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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:09 pm

I have some ideas to present to the entire forum on this matter which you can also think about along with Adroit's ideas.

-All rules will be generalized and major restrictions will be removed. Roleplay guidelines will be molded EXACTLY according to the canon Star Wars universe. Adroit's general idea for the new, free Jedi Sith rules.

-Duel match calls can only be decided on by the party directly involved in it. The loser must wholly accept his/her defeat before it is declared official. This idea is of special importance on my part.

Other ideas to consider:
-Previous power restrictions, such as sacrificing Force Ice for Electric Judgment, are removed. All learned powers can be used without penalty or tribute.
-Powers can be learned by oneself if proper time and practice is used to gain the knowledge to use said powers.
-Mods' and admins' authority will lie in only the forum guidelines (removing SPAM, banning trolls and n00bs) - they will have no special authority in roleplays or roleplaying guidelines. All RP guidelines will henceforth be independent and approved by the forum community.
-Independent history timelines will be established and be an open book for all members to add in the missing gaps at any time.
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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 4:45 pm

So basically, what Vegito, Mark, Ritcher and Forgotten Jedi are saying, is that they're smart asses who know everything and the rest of the forum is a bunch of power hungry dumbasses. How do you know it's going to fail? How can you tell it won't succeed? Have you tried this approach before? I've been to one of your forums before, and I can truly say that having rules fucking SUCKS. It's fucking Starwars for Christ's sake!

The way it is now, everyone is equal. Everyone is on a level playing field despite what they think OOC because they use fancy medical terms and can create long drawn out posts that are filled with unnecissary details that have no relevance to the RP at all. If I were to get into a fight, with a force user, the rules would apply to our fight and I could easily kill him if I could trick him or just out fight him.

The way Ket is suggesting, makes things more REALISTIC to the STARWARS UNIVERSE! If you think this should be an RPG, get the fuck out now because it's not. Star Wars is meant to be one sided. No matter what you do there will always be someone more powerful than you. Most of us are smart enough to know when we've reached our limit, if you can't see that than it's YOU people that are retarded.

And because I know I'm gonna get flamed by anal butt pirates for this, I'm gonna say this one last thing: NO ONE FUCKING CARES ABOUT YOU. If you left, no one would cry. Life would go on and the forum would survive and everyone would be happy. Same goes with if you stayed. Just remember that you don't run this forum (To explain myself you all act like you do own the forum). Last I checked, Terand and Desra ran the forums so what they say goes.

Welcome to the real world ladies and gentlemen, it's not a fucking democracy!
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Vegito Rikhard

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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:17 pm

I think Mike is having a temper tantrum and has not payed attention to the whole debate. If you noticed, Lancer has agreed to some of the feed.

Also, quit acting like were all in the same group. Its freaking weird.
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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:28 pm

Last I checked, you had to be mad to be having a temper tantrum, and I'm not mad, so shut the fuck up thanks?

And I have payed attention to the whole debate. You all agreed somewhat but at the same time you turned it down like it was a fat chick with AIDs. Hence my post.

You all ARE in the same group Vegito. You all defend each other and do the same things. There are times when I have a hard time figuring out if it's you or Ritcher speaking, you two are THAT similar.
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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:40 pm

I don't know why you keep putting us four guys in the same group. I barely know Richter, and I really haven't talk to Mark or Vegito much recently. If you bothered looking at Mark's post compared to mine, we both had a pretty different opinion. Suspect

And yes, Mike, you do seem mad. You keep swearing to make yourself look all big. Nobody is convinced you are so by doing that. No

If you don't like my ideas, fine. But stop acting like this, it makes you look childish. We all have a free voice on this forum, and if you don't like that fact, you can shove it where the sun doesn't shine.

I honestly don't care about your opinions about who will miss me. I come here for the fun of it. If I ran away from every forum that had people like you, I would never have started RPing in the first place.

So if you have anything else to say to me that isn't worth saying... talk to the hand. study
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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:41 pm

Lol, this post should be in the heated debate forum.
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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:42 pm

It's not even a heated debate on Mike's part, it's just a personal attack.
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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:53 pm

A) Just because you have different opinions, doesn't mean you're not in the same group. I'm a conservative republican while one of my best friends is a liberal democrat.

B) I swear because it's my fucking language, not because I wanna look big. I don't have to look big to you or anyone else over the internet because of one simple thouht: I don't have to prove a fucking thing to anybody. You wanna bitch about the way I talk, then how about I bitch at the way you all talk? I could bitch Ritcher out for his Old English and educated talk but I don't, because everyone has their own language.

C) I'm not acting like this because I don't like your ideas, I'm acting like this because at every turn you all make it seem like you run this forum by knowing what's best for it without even TRYING the idea out. At least try it out before you say "oooo this will not be best!"

D) Good, because I don't care what you think either. And like I said, leave or don't, life goes on. The point of that comment was to protray that you all are not the Gods of the forum. It WILL live without you and it most certainly can prosper without you. Same goes with me and everyone else.

E) Should take your own advice.
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PostSubject: Re: Jedi Sith - Rules   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:59 pm

Like any of this has anything to do with what I said. We barely know each other.

Talking Old English isn't rude, it's just a quirk. Swearing is considered rude.

If someone makes a proposal, I deduce whether or not it will work. I am entitled to my opinion, same as you. It's an OPINION. No one has to abide by it.

I don't recall myself saying I was a god of the forum. It's quite obvious it can live without me because it did so for about three years.

I frequently take my own advice. Do you?
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